The first thing that might creep into your mind’s eye of Pat McNamara might be the sight of him leaping from his mother’s womb and swiftly drop-kicking the delivery doc in the face to the Rolling Stones blaring over the hospital loudspeaker. Upon first sight, you might view McNamara through the same lens as a Chuck Norris-type figure, particularly in Norris’ role as Major Scott McCoy in The Delta Force; a tale of the Pantheonic titans of the Special Forces godhead. This was, of course, one of our culture’s first attempts at capturing the elite unit through the scope of Hollywood. Tier-one warriors, heavy metal blaring, heavy weaponry blazing, on the way to some God-forsaken part of the planet to take out the trash… and maybe rescue a damsel in distress on the way. Even though this is clearly the entertainment industry’s paltry effort to take an extremely complex mission set and stupefy it into something digestible over 90 minutes… you get the picture.

Back to our late 80’s early 90’s vision of Pat McNamara and fast-forward… here he is in the modern-day… usually sporting some variation of the Fu Manchu, a tatted-up, chiseled-out frame even at 55+, many would describe as that of a war machine. But this idea of him being formed from that clay mold initially, wasn’t even half accurate. He hadn’t grown up as the supercharged killer, hostage rescuing zenith. In fact, McNamara would, in fact, describe himself as a “kid who’d get his ass kicked…” more interested in riding unicycles, shaping plaster models, or watching birds than learning how to “crush the enemy.” But, interestingly enough, that same foundation that seemed so far out of the scope of all things elite is what made Pat such a force to be reckoned with. All of the nuances of who he was at genesis became the very sum of all the parts that make McNamara so uniquely capable. Things obviously changed and he found a new path as his formative years took him into young adulthood, but the story along the way is engrossing nonetheless. Who is Pat McNamara? Why is he where he is? How did he get here? All fair questions… better answered by the man himself.

We're going way back. Who was Pat McNamara? How did he decide on the path that he decided on? Born in '65. What led you to where you are now?

PM: My metamorphosis started late in life. I wasn't an energetic, athletic, little kid. I was ambitious in that I liked to work. I remember early on getting motivated by money and people were willing to give me money if I worked for it. I learned that early on. I started a bank account when I was 14 years old. But my metamorphosis probably didn't happen until I was like 15 years old. Before that, I was very quirky. I was a very nerdy, very gentle, passive, young lad.

It's hard to picture you that way.

PM: I was the kid who drove a unicycle to school. I was a kid who'd get his ass kicked because I was a birdwatcher, not a football player. I wanted to juggle and ride a unicycle and learn magic tricks and crap like that. Draw, do artwork, make things out of plaster, carve, sculpt, and all that geeky crap. I had an older brother who tormented me. I'll go through this part quickly, because it honestly feels irrelevant. He was just a nasty individual. He was the firstborn and I was the second. He was two years older, but a lot bigger and he was a bully. He tormented me because I was just a gentle, passive, little sissy. I was an easy target, I was easy prey. It affected me a lot. I was afraid of him and I did not like him. I was just an easy target whenever he wanted to get out frustration, anger, or just have fun… because that's what bullies do. They want to have fun. They want to torment somebody. The first time he went to prison he was 16 which would make me 14 at the time.

My neighbors, knew he tormented me and I had this one neighbor, in particular, who became my mentor. He first said to me, “Hey, man, you have time right now.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?” He replied, “You have to get ready for Kevin to come back…” because, in a year and a half, Kevin was coming back home from prison. He said, “You should get ready for him…” and I had no idea what he was talking about. He just laid it out, “People are bullies and you can't change them unless you change the way they think. As soon as a bully gets punched in the frickin' nose he's no longer a bully.” He started me on a path to weightlifting, it was a whole new thing for me. He said, “Hey, check out these magazines.” Muscle and Fitness or whatever they were. I forget what the '70s version of those were. He was also a martial artist. He said, “I'm going to teach you some fighting. You should join sports at school.” My dad loved that I had this mentor because he liked this guy too. This guy was a local cop in my town. Before he was a cop, he was in Hells Angels and he was a black belt in Taekwondo. He was cool as shit, man. I mean, really cool. I joined the wrestling team because he recommended it and my dad was thrilled that I was going to join a sports team. And man, I sucked so freaking bad (laughs) but I stuck with it because I had a good coach.

The coach of the team did not shun the little sissy kids who sucked. He saw potential in everybody, which was cool as shit. So I stuck with it and he suggested, “Hey, go and wrestle in the summer times at the college if you want to be good.” And I remember saying, “Hell no, I'm not doing that. I'm just going to stick with the wrestling team.” So my first year of wrestling, freshman year, I just got my ass kicked all the time. That second year I won one match, 10th grade, I won one match and I remember that feeling of victory. It was the first time I was ever victorious in anything substantial. I'm not talking victorious in picking flowers or recognizing a new bird. This was big. I won a wrestling match and I wanted more of that. That summer before 11th grade, I did what he said and I went a couple of days a week to the college and the college kids were awesome. They were like, “Hell yeah, young punky high school kids want to be better at wrestling? Absolutely, we'll teach you some shit.” So 11th grade, I was good, really good. I was way up there. During senior year, I was the captain of the team, couldn't be beaten, and won all the state tournaments and everything.

That was a big game changer for me. That was it. It was 11th grade, I started thinking about the military because I liked this new feeling of this toughness and the confidence that came with that. Not cockiness, but confidence. Everything was going my way because of that. I did better with grades, for instance. I was working two part-time jobs. I was going to high school, wrestling, and working two part-time jobs. I started packing on muscle, girls became interested in me and holy crap… I was just a whole new person. It was the end of my junior year of high school, I was 16 going on 17, and when Kevin came back home from prison, I was a new dude. He started shit with me and I jacked him up right in front of my parents. Double leg takedown, headlock, punches to the face. Right in the kitchen and my parents just sat there and watched. They knew that was his comeuppance right there. I finished punching him in the face. Wham. Wham. Wham. I got up and told my parents, “See you later…” because a buddy of mine was waiting for me outside. There was a lot of freedom with that too, with being an athlete and doing good in school. My parents let me do whatever the hell I wanted. Plus, I was making money. They let me do whatever I wanted.

It was a great feeling. Because with all the other kids, hell no man they weren’t getting out… lock and key. They didn't have that kind of freedom. I had freedom. Senior year there was no doubt. It was my path but it's a big path and I was wondering where I was gonna go. My dad kept saying, “Become an officer, become an officer, become an officer.” He was trying to get me into the academies, like the Air Force Academy and West Point. Thankfully, I did not have the mental capacity for that. I mean, those are big schools and even though I was good in high school, I was an honor graduate, on the honor roll, but I just didn't have the mental capacity for any of that. I told him, “I'm not sure I want to go that route. I want to be a badass.” (laughs) But what is that actually? Nowadays, kids are inundated. They hear about Rangers, Seal Team Six, and Force Recon. They know about all this crap. Now it's all over the news, there are books, and there are movies. Back then you didn't know shit. You didn't know crap about any of that stuff. The gym that I was going to was the YMCA and there was a dude in there who used to be in the military and we would talk occasionally. He said, “Man, you're packing on the freakin' muscle…” and this and that. He asked me what I was going to do after high school. I said, “I'm going to join the military.” He said, “You should do some Special Operations stuff.” I said something like, “Yeah, whatever that means.” I had no idea.

I went and talked to all of the recruiters. There was a recruiter row downtown, it was just one after the other. I asked all of them, “Hey, what's the hardest thing I can do? In the Marine Corps, what's the hardest thing I can do? In the Air Force, what's the hardest thing I can do? In the Navy?” The Army had the best, fastest answer for me. They had two routes, what I call fast track into badassery, which nobody else had. You had to go through a series of this and that but the Army had the Army Airborne Ranger contract and then, in 1983, they also had this brand new thing called an “SF baby.” It was a brand new thing, “the X-ray program.” Plus, they had the coolest recruiting poster. I remember looking at the recruiting poster on the wall, seeing this dude with the green beret on, all of these rappelling ropes, camouflage on his face, and a rifle in his hands. That right there is what I wanted. I wanted to be that guy. So that's why I signed up for that.

What was the path from there to getting into the military. So you said you started feeling it around 11th grade? 

PM: I remember his name Pooler, Sergeant First Class Pooler. He was nice enough. I went and told my dad, “Hey, I signed a contract.” I did this without my dad knowing and he goes, “Damn, you should have talked to me first.” I said, “What for? I told him Special Forces.” This buddy of his, Paul, used to be in Special Forces and Paul is also a lawyer. And he said, “Bring Paul down there to the recruiter station, and have him review your paperwork.” So we go down and the recruiter sees us coming in, I said, “Hey, Sergeant Pooler. This is my dad's friend, Paul. He's a lawyer.” Paul said, “Can we see the paperwork?” And man, that recruiter was scrambling, dotting I's and crossing T's.

Thankfully, my dad had my best interests in mind and got that done for me. So that was the beginning right there. It was still peacetime Army, Cold War shit. The pipeline process was 13 weeks of infantry basic to jump school and then to Fort Bragg for the SF course. There was no SFAS. It was called pre-phase. It was just a weeding out process. It was just a beat down. “Let's just trim the fat. See who really wants to be here.”

 How much did you learn throughout that course? Was there some good leadership that really helped you? 

PM: Through the SF course itself? I have to be honest, I didn't learn as much from them as I did from my peers. The buck sergeants, staff sergeants and sergeants first class who had come from infantry units, who came from Ranger battalions, that's where the learning took place. Being in the field with those dudes right there. Holy crap. It’s little shit like seeing how they pack their ruck, seeing how they rucked. These guys telling me when it comes to rucking, tighten that thing up, wear it high on your back, one foot in front of the other, lock your knees, and on and on. Big strides. “Stay clean in the field. This is how you pack your ruck. This is how you set up a poncho tent.” All that crap. I learned how you make coffee in the field. You know, shit like that. That's where the learning took place. The instructors… most of them were just teaching what they read out of a book, or yelling at you in the field.

It was a bumpy road for me. There were a lot of failures, a lot of let downs. There were certain parts I loved and certain parts I hated. During the whole process, they want you to learn but they also want to toughen you up. So there were beat downs, there was sleep deprivation, and there was hunger. There was the weather. It was never hot. It was always cold. But I appreciated the process and it was freaking hard. It was not easy for me.

Were you accepted in pretty easily when you got there to your group?

PM: I didn’t feel accepted right away because I was a private. So what do I know? “What are you bringing to the table…” is always the question. Nothing but a Green Beret… that's it. You have no background. There's nothing there but a qualification and a tab on your shoulder. So, what I had to do was work. I had to prove my worth by working harder than the other guy. I had to show them that I wanted to be there. I wanted to learn, I wanted to do better. I started doing that and started fast-tracking. I volunteered for everything. I wanted to go to every school.

While there I got my Combat Dive School, HALO school (high altitude-low opening), another SF MOS (Special Forces Military Occupational Specialty), 18 Bravo (Special Forces Weapons Sergeant) and 18 Echo (Special Forces Communications Sergeant). It was about three years before I got recruited to do other things. At that young age, you don't have a five-year plan, or some pipe dream of “… this is what I want to do in the military.” You're just kind of coasting, trying not to piss off the leadership, strap hanging, and trying to keep your head above water. So I had no idea that anything else was ever on the horizon… ever, anywhere. Going to other assignments was an eye opener because the next thing I did was a completely different ball of wax. I got recruited to do some Cold War shit I didn't even know existed, wasn't on my radar anywhere. Who knew about that crap? “You want me to do what? Set up networks for double agents in Berlin? I get to grow my hair out and my uniform gets to be civilian clothes?” Holy crap, man, I didn't know. I'm going to live off the economy and have a job in that same economy. That was some crazy crap. It was so much fun and it was such a bigger challenge. I had two Cold War jobs. I had that one and then another one, where I was spying on the Soviet Army in former Soviet East Germany.

Wow. That's pretty relevant nowadays.

PM: Yeah. I'm watching the news right now and I'm going, “Oh, there's a BTR-80. That's a PTS- 2. That's a  MiG-29. There's a T-80 reactive.” I had that job when I got to the unit where we had to become Warsaw Pact ID experts. They sent us to a school in Kent, England, run by British military intelligence. It was called USMLM (U.S. Military Liaison Mission). See that license plate up there on my wall… that was from one of my cars. This wasn't covert spying. It was pretty overt. They knew we were there and we knew they knew we were there (laughs).

 Okay. So as you clearly stated they knew you were there.

PM: Yes. Well, undercover for action, cover for status. We were a liaison unit to the Soviet Army… blah, blah, blah. They knew what the hell we were doing. We'd go out on missions for three days and pretty much stay up the whole time. It just wasn't conducive to longevity to take a nap somewhere. We went out in these Mercedes G Wagons, highly modified, with two people. One of us was a German speaker, one Russian speaker, and both of us were Warsaw Pact ID experts. And for three days at a time we’d drive over the Glienicke Brücke, show them our credentials, head over to the consulates, exchange mail, and then move into enemy territory. A lot of where we went was based on satellite imagery and stuff like that. So we would kind of probe certain areas and we had to be careful how we traveled because it was a constant cat and mouse game. 

The Soviets knew and if they saw us, they knew what we were up to. They had impunity to stop us with whatever means available so you didn't want to get caught with your pants down. We would just start probing certain areas and then look for training areas, convoys, train depots, train tracks, and whatever type of kit. Then you looked at the plate number so you could associate it with units and this and that. Then you were looking for new relevant kit modifications, like, “What's that modification to that Ural-375, I've never seen that comms package on the back before. Let's take pictures of it so when we get back we could send it up to higher and they can evaluate it.” It was fun. It was basically reconnaissance, just taking pictures, video, and associating it with the order of battle with unit affiliation, that kind of stuff. But it was hairy stuff and it was fun as shit. I think it was fun too because of the element of danger. You know, there's always an element of danger.

Did you ever get stopped?

PM: Yeah. The Soviets would issue us maps and these maps of East Germany had these big yellow sections on them and these yellow sections were called PRAs—Permanently Restricted Areas—and you couldn't go into those areas but that's where all the good shit was (laughs). That's where all the nukes were and KGB comms and crap like that. So you wanted to probe those but you had to be really slick about it because they had impunity. They could kill you if you got caught in a PRA. Outside of a PRA, we were a liaison unit to the Soviet Army but in a PRA they could stop you, detain you, kill you. We knew this was hairy. This one Major I was with, we were tucked up into the woods, checking out this bridge with binos. We knew on the other side there was a nuke capable, surface to surface or surface to air, I can't remember if it was a SS21 or SA. But we wanted to get across this bridge, tuck into the woods, and start taking tank trails. 

We kept looking and we'd say, “It looks clear, let's let's try it out.” As soon as we hit this bridge, it was about maybe 400 meters long, a BMP-2 pulls up on the other side of it, so I put the car in reverse and a ZIL-131 was behind us with troops. They got out and have freaking rifles and we didn’t have any weapons. I was like, “Shit this is bad, this is really bad.” So now we were stuck between these two military vehicles. The troop carrier guys unloaded something from the back and unfolded a massive sheet of canvas. One of them got on one side of the bridge, one on the other, and they started walking, putting air underneath the canvas tarp and they got to the vehicle and tarped the vehicle… the entire vehicle. Now we're in complete darkness. But talk about ingenuity, talk about a field expedient way to stop a vehicle. Who would have thought of that? You're not going anywhere in those conditions. 

So we were in blackness and they were pounding on the doors, yelling in freaking Russian and I'm thinking, “Oh my God, man.” I'm thinking to myself, “If they start just shooting into this car it's probably not going to hurt that much. When 7.62 x 39mm starts ripping through this thing it's probably not going to hurt that much.” It was the first time I ever thought that because I was really, really nervous. We were under there for, maybe, an hour and a half. Every once in a while the tarp would lift up and a Soviet officer would yell at my officer, and he would talk back. They were speaking Russian and I didn't know what the hell they were saying because I'm a German speaker. Then we hear a helicopter land close to us, a HIP Mi-8. There's more discussion outside, you could hear people talking and the officer I'm with was listening in. The tarp was raised again, they had a discussion, and he said, “Hey, I need to get out of the car.” 

I was like, “God, don't do this, bro.” (laughs) He said, “No, it's going to be alright,” and I said, “This is the worst possible scenario.” So, he cracks a door and the Soviets were pointing rifles at me. And I was just saying, “Mother fucker.” What do you do? What do you do? We didn't even have radios because they were afraid of RDF—Radio Direction-Finding. So they didn't want us carrying two-meter rigs. I'm saying, “Holy shit…” and I could hear him, they were right there outside of the car. He said, “I'm going to leave the door cracked and I'll be right here.” Their bantering kept going back and forth—talking, talking, talking. He got back in, they took the tarp off the car, and we left. I didn't even ask what happened. What drug deal did he make? I don’t care and still don’t care (laughs). We did that turnaround and went back the other way.

You were there during reunification?

PM: I was based out of Berlin during “Wiedervereinigung”—reunification. I was there when the wall came down in '89 and then the reunification in '91. That was pretty cool. I was there during the whole thing. Reunification night was badass because the party was at the Brandenburg Gate. The wall was down and the first party during reunification lasted all night. Right there in the streets. There were empty bottles of booze everywhere. It was just pure elation. Everybody was elated. There were thousands of people out there, you'd think you'd see a fistfight. It was just nothing but hugs and kisses and love for everybody. It was un-freaking-believable. But once that dried up I remember saying to myself, “Well, what do I do now?” There was only one path. I needed to go to selection for the unit. So that was my next step.

What was selection like? Was that a ballbuster too?

PM: Yeah, of course. It was the best, most professional course you could ever go to. You're all done, at that point, with being yelled at and crap. Do you know what I mean? No one is yelling at you. You're not sleep deprived either, nor are you starving. When people think of military schools, they think of those things—cold, wet, hungry, tired, and getting yelled at. I mean, you're cold and wet in selection, but you weren't sleep deprived and nobody's yelling at you. That course was as hard as you made it on a personal level. It's as simple as that. It was a ballbuster because you wanted to be there. And you know it's going to be hard. You know this is not going to be easy. And it wasn't for me, because I failed the first time through.

There's no other place on the planet like it. I mean, just ridiculous. The amount of knowledge there and the amount of badassery, that place just oozed badassery. It's the pinnacle of everything badass. Other Special Ops guys knew that too. There are guys from other branches in Special Ops units who wanted to be there. So they knew it as well. I spent 13 years there. It was an experience that I wish I could share the entire experience, like when I do a podcast or something. But there's just too much. We were working with the best people in the world.

I won't disclose stuff that we did. I do that stuff in private with friends but not in an open forum. I just don't want to be one of those tools. The missions were all over the map. People think of Special Ops as kill capture type of stuff. But we were all over the map and some of it was even clandestine or low-visibility. Which is what you hope to do, that low-vis, creature of the night type of thing. That civilian clothes, cloak, and dagger kind of crap. That's the real fun stuff instead of just kitting up with all the bells and whistles and going and kicking doors in. We did the other thing too, that low-vis, clandestine. surreptitious type of entry and movement.

Were you were you in when Iraq kicked off when the towers got hit? What do you remember about that?

PM: I remember it very, very, very clearly. I got to the unit in '92. So in '01 I was now an OTC (Operator Training Course) instructor, training dudes, the next generation of operator. I was down on one of our ranges in a CQB maze (Close-Quarter Battle), putting dudes through CQB. There were about four of us up there on the catwalk and in-between iterations we would critique them. So I got down, I was critiquing one of my guys and he had a broken piece of gear. I said, “You have about 15 minutes before you go back into the maze again. You watch this video on your last hit, I'll go down and DX (direct exchange) this piece of gear for you.” I jumped into a vehicle because he had shit to do and I was going to hook him up. I went to whatever it was, the S4 CIF (Central Issue Facility), ran in to get him his piece of gear, and the guy at the CIF counter was watching the TV and one of the towers was hit. But you know, when that first tower got hit, it was like, “Oh, man, that's crazy. That's a crazy accident.” People were speculating that it was even a Cessna because I asked the guy at the CIF counter what happened and he said a small plane had just hit one of the Trade Towers at the World Trade Center and I was like, “Holy crap.” So one of the guys went and got me the piece of gear that I needed and I was watching the TV with the other guy.

We were watching the smoke and then all of sudden the other one gets hit. Now we know this wasn't some freak accident. He looked at me, I look at him and I think it's a reaction that most people had, just silence. Just that sudden realization that people were attacking us with freaking jets. When that second one went in, you knew that was a big jet. The first one, there wasn't a lot of film footage of it but now all eyes were watching right there because one of the Trade Towers had smoke coming from it. When that second one went in, it was like, “Oh shit.” I got that piece of gear and went back up range. I gathered a real quick admin hold. I said, “Hey guys, hold up a second, this is what's going on.” Just then somebody from the chain of command came down range and said, “Hey, everybody to the chow hall.” So they pulled the whole unit into a chow hall and gave us basically an intel dump of what they knew. I think by then one of the jets had flown into either the field or hit the Pentagon. That changed our perspective on everything right then. No more peacetime Army. No more low-vis ops.

How much did the preparation change in instruction? Were you still instructing passed that time?

PM: Everything was the same. Everything went exactly the same from that day forward. Nothing changed at all because we were always prepping for that level of a fight. There was nothing that said, “Holy shit. There's now a sense of urgency. We better train harder.” There was no way we could have trained harder. But mission focus, like the sense of urgency on mission focus, and your perspective and attitude changed. Definitely. I did two trips over to Iraq. I'm bummed that I never got to go to Afghanistan. I mean, that's more of what I would want to do, that type of mountain warfare. I just think that would be so cool. Hearing the guys tell stories about that, I had deployment envy.

To tell you the truth, I did not really want to get out at that point but I had some personal shit going on at home. I had two little kids and their mom was not providing them with the guidance and parenting that a parent should. So, I felt an obligation. I was like, “Dammit, man, where do my priorities lie? Do my priorities lie with being a badass commando or with raising my kids?” And that was a big change.

Talk about that.

PM: Well, I got a job even before I retired and I picked the low-hanging fruit because I didn't know anything about this side of the world. It wasn't going to be completely foreign to me because I was working with retired military dudes and I was also going to be doing training. Still gun stuff. I was looking to maintain some relevance and keep my skills up. I think, at the time, I thought it was cool but now that I'm on my own, I look back and I think, “That was so lame.” It was so freaking lame. It was just wasted years. I worked with this corporation for four and a half years, something like that. I mean, I'm glad I went through that process because it helped get my foot in the door and I started branding myself as a person in the gun industry. But damn, it sucked. So the job sucked and my relationship was getting worse and worse at home. So home life sucked. It all just sucked. At the end of those four and a half, five years, whatever it was, I needed a change. And they laid me off… they laid me off and I remember thinking, “Holy shit now what do I do? What does that even mean, getting laid off? I don't even know what that means.”

You never think about job security when you're in the military. You never think, “Oh man, tomorrow I'm going to get fired. I might not have a job or a paycheck.” And I didn't think about it at this new job because it was kind of similar to my old job in the military. I was working with a government contracting company so I was still thinking I was basically working for the government. When I got laid off the amount of emotions I went through instantly… I’d say I was scared to death number one. “What am I going to do? Where's the thought process start here? What am I going to do now?”

What was that feeling like?

PM: It was a completely different feeling. It was so foreign and I did not even know how to process it. When I went home I told my wife at the time, who sucked, and she said, “Oh, just get a job with so and so, they'll hire you.” I wasn't thinking about doing my own thing. I called a couple of dudes I knew, who were former unit dudes, that had their own businesses and I said, “Hey, do you think you can find me work?” All three said the same thing. They all said yes, absolutely but they all told me, “Hey, just build your own business. Do it on your own. You got a name already. You're already branding yourself. People know who you are in the training industry.” I said, “I don't know about that.” But they gave me permission. The corporation that laid me off gave me three weeks and I used every bit of that company time to build my own business. 

Every single minute. I worked harder than I had in the past five years. I would be the first one to work on that company computer just data collecting, burning off, typing stuff up, and getting my corporation going and my CAGE (Commercial and Government Entity) and DUNS (Data Universal Numbering System) codes and all this government stuff. Building little shit like price quotes and stuff like that. I got my first contract before my time was up at the corporation. It was big. It was 4th Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division. So that kept me going for a while and then it was another one with Secret Service. Then it was another one with the Border Patrol. I was like, “Oh, man, these guys were right. I can do it.” But the amount of shit that I learned, from after I retired to now was huge because I made all the mistakes. All of them.

It was almost right on the surface, it was really bad. Getting laid off pushed me over. I was in a really low place before that, a real dark, low place. I was still in this horrible relationship with the mother of my kids, who was a product of the mental health system. She sucked, man, sucked so bad. I was living in the bonus room above my garage for almost five years. I lived in the bonus room above my garage and now I was on my own, traveling my ass off. So here I was traveling again and it sucked bad all the way up until 2013. That's when shit changed again. 2005 shit changed dramatically. 2008 changed dramatically, 2010 getting laid off and having to generate my own business. Everything changed again. And then 2013. It was my worst and best year ever. I almost capitulated to darkness. I was almost to the point where I was just going to accept mediocrity forever and hit rock bottom. I almost became a complete POS.

What was the turning point for you? Do you remember exactly that moment? Or do you remember what led up to it?

PM: There was one night. I was a day drinker every day. I would start with Jack and Coke. I would just empty half of the Coke out of the bottle and fill the rest up with Jack and start drinking at like 11 in the morning. Not to get freaking hammered, just to kind of numb me out a little bit. By eight, nine o'clock p.m., I was smashed every night. And my kids would come up into the bonus room with me because it was their escape too. They'd watch The Simpsons with me or some crap. And my kid that you met today, Jimmy Mac, was the cutest little freaking boy. He was probably five at the time. I was sitting with him and I was freaking smashed, just melting into the couch. I remember that night vividly. We were watching The Simpsons, the TV's over here and I had a little window right here. It was dark outside and there was a little teeny table lamp with incandescent light. So it kind of filling this room with this real soft yellow orangish light. This window was open to the elements and it was black out there. I was looking at the window and boom, a freaking screech owl lands right on the windowsill. I mean, it's literally from here to that bookshelf away. I was looking at the screech owl and I turned real slowly to James and I said, “James, look at the window real slowly.” He turned his head and we were both looking at this little screech owl and it flew off.

I said, “Dude, that was cool.” And I was looking at this little cute face and I said to Jimmy Mac, “James, you know what? I don't just love you, dude. I am in love with you.” He started crying. Not like bawling, but he welled up instantly. I put him to bed and I realized I needed to be around these kids. I couldn’t be this piece of shit absentee father. So that night I was thinking, did some soul searching, and I said to myself, “I'm going to go for a run tomorrow.” I pre-planned as I put on my running shoes, I put on my iPod, some shorts or whatever. I set an alarm and I got up early. It was like a Saturday morning. I put all my shit on and I just started running. It was like a Forrest Gump moment. I ran for like an hour and a half and I'm not a runner. I came back and had mental clarity. I was starving but I didn’t want to go into the house. I called the house, “the home where dreams go to die.” That's what I would call it. I didn't want to go in there to get something to eat. So I stayed in the driveway and I worked out for like another hour and a half. At that point I wasn't working out hard but man, I just felt so freaking good. I had all these mantras I was saying to myself. “I will not be defeated…” and “I'm not buried, I am planted.” I just started encouraging myself. That was my first victory in so long, having that little victory right there.

What did that feel like for you in achieving those first victories again?

PM: Just like having that first victory in wrestling, I wanted more of it because I started to remember the feeling. This is what victory felt like. I wanted more of that shit. Then one thing happened after the other. I can't recall if it was that day or the next day, but a local cop called me because the cops knew me in the area. Plus, they had been to my house like five times. My ex would call them on me because she said I was bugging the house or she found shoes or she told them there was a girl in her closet… just all this delusional shit. They knew she was batshit crazy. But they called me saying, “Hey, can we meet you at the house?” I said, “Sure, yeah.” I was downtown doing errands or something and I got home, and this cop's name was “Tom,” and I'll never forget the look on his face. Thankfully, he was a seasoned cop, so he was an older guy. He had these big brown soft eyes and he was looking at me and kind of shaking his head. He said, “Hey, man, just ran into your wife in the village and she's really jacked up on drugs.” I brushed it off like, “Oh, okay, yeah, I'll go check on her.” He knew I was in a bad place but I was faking it, man. And he said, “Mac, I gotta tell you, you need to get the fuck out of here. The kids will understand, kids are resilient.” Man. I just came unglued. I just gushed. This is the first time anybody's ever acknowledged this. I moved out the next day. I found a place close, 500 yards away because I needed to be close to the kiddies. I found a condo, and loaded up the truck with whatever I could fit in it. So guns, ammo, and gear. I think that's all I left with and I left everything else there. I took a futon bed and a small TV. That was March or April of 2013. It was my worst year because I was bottom of the barrel and it was also my rebirth. Forty-eight years old at the time, in 2013, I had to start life all over again.

What did you learn in that rebirth? What did you learn about Pat Mac, about yourself?

PM: I remembered who I was. That's one thing. I was forgetting that. Joined the gym, started working out again, started knuckling down, started generating business, and just started thinking more. Thinking and trying to nourish my brain more because my brain was becoming stagnant. So, now I had a fire lit under my ass and my fire became like an inferno. That's the other saying I had said to myself, “Keep the blaze alive.” And I use this analogy of being at the point where my fire was out but I still had an ember, just an ember, that's all I had. But that day when I went for that run, it was like nurturing the ember into a flame and then the flame into the fire and then the fire into an inferno. I just went freaking batshit crazy with work. I worked my ass off because now the divorce process started and I hired an expensive freaking lawyer. I was trying to get custody of the kids so I had to work my ass off to pay for all that crap. But I didn't mind.

What was that next phase like and getting to get out on the road? You're getting into the tactical side, right? You'd already been in it?

PM: Since 2010 I've been in it. Big lessons. Here's another thing about 2013—best year, worst year. Let me get to more worst because this was part of it. A big lesson learned was never to put all your eggs in one basket. This is part of the transitional phase of speeches I give to people. Like I said, in 2013, government contract, government contract, 82nd Airborne, Secret Service, Border Patrol. I was set to jet man, those were government cash cows. I was set and I was doing some open enrollment stuff. So I was looking at my calendar for 2013 and it's filled to the brim mostly with Border Patrol. So I'm constantly going out to El Paso or Artesia or I'm going up to the DC area working with the Secret Service. I was hustling man, I was working hard. I looked at my calendar and it was full. And what happened? This little thing called sequestration. So in February, light switch, click.

Every government agency that I had a job with emailed me and said they couldn’t do it anymore, funds were cut. Funds were cut during Obama, so sequestration for travel and training. Now I'm looking at my calendar and saying, “Oh no.” It was good and bad. Good in that now I had time because in April I was on my own again. I had time to start to rethink the process. But I was in debt, too, because of my ex. I had no idea how much debt we were in until I had to shoulder it all. I mean I’m talking $100,000 credit card debt. That was not me and I remember thinking, “Oh, my God. Now I have no work for the next six months and I'm racking up more debt.” But I kept my head above water by picking up a bunch of open enrollment classes because by then my name was big enough in the industry that I could fill a class with, let's say, two months’ notice. Now I can fill a class in 2026 with a 10-minute notice.

That's awesome. What would you advise to guys who are going through that similar down moment? That moment of depression when they're getting out?

PM: So this one is huge. They have to stay connected. I didn't stay connected with anybody. I think Josh Collins coined the term “Connection Is The Cure.” He's a buddy of mine who did a bunch of charity stuff. He's got a cool, cool backstory. Connection is the cure. Pretty sure that's his term. So they have to stay connected with like-minded dudes. Because they're not going to find it on TV, on social media, or at their local watering hole. They have to stay connected. And most guys, initially, want to disconnect. I did and then I realized real fast how much I was missing. I was missing dudes. Sounds pretty gay (laughs). So that's number one, they have to stay connected. And number two, they can't let stagnation take over. They have to stay busy. They have to stay employed. I'm not talking employed with the job. But employed, they have to stay busy. That's so freaking important. Those are two things I did not do. When I was working, I was working but when I was home, I was stagnant. I wasn't doing shit and that started eating away at me, just start chipping away at the person who I was. So those are two big things right there.

I've always been interested and I think that's important. If you're interested too you become interesting. Another thing I tell people is that the more you know, the less you have to rely on others to help you out. I want to continue learning. There's always stuff I look at and I go, man, I want to do that. I want to try that. But this is important too, especially with guys transitioning or when they find themselves in a dark place or low. And they say, “You know what? I'm thinking about doing that.” Do it right now. In other words, you don't need a plan. Sometimes action without a plan is way better than a plan with no action. Just start the process, whatever that is. You know the the journey of 1,000 miles starts with a single footstep or whatever corny saying it is. Just start whatever it is, just start. You know, “I want to build that thing or I want to go to that place.” Start right now. Start packing shit.

Yeah. You don't have to be a unit operator do that.

PM: No, hell no. You don't have to be a military guy or ex-military guy. A lot of people find themselves in dark, low places. And it's not because they're suffering from depression because they missed the camaraderie of the military. But it is commonplace with military dudes, especially career military dudes and ground pounders. Because the camaraderie around ground pounders is more intimate than somebody who was an office worker in the military. Little open enrollments are where I started again because that's all I knew. Then I realized open enrollment is the place. That's where to go. That's it right there. I'm never going to do another government contract. And other dudes told me that too. They said, “Hey, I learned that lesson in 2006 or whatever. Don't put all your eggs in one basket and stay away from government contract stuff because they just don't pan out. They have the right or the impunity to pull the plug any second they want. They have no obligation.” It's not like you could hold their feet to the fire. The government didn’t pay down payments. It didn’t work like that. So I made enough to keep my head above water but it was a lot of work. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, one trip after the other. I was making good money but it was all going to either pay the debt, pay the kid’s mom, or pay lawyers and then I would have this little chunk of change left so I could enjoy life to some degree. Then everything changed again when I met Rebecca at the beginning of September 2013. She is fucking awesome. She's the best human being I've ever met.

When you talked about her early when we were outside and you brought her up, I don't know if you're aware of it, but your countenance changed. You softened, and your eyes lit up.

PM: We've been together, she reminded me, coming up on nine years. I told somebody the other day we've been together seven years. And she's like, “Mac 2013, 2022.” So, yeah, it’s been nine (laughs). You know, in nine years, we haven't had a single cross word. Well, I'm done with that. I did so much of that. I heard so much. I'm so done with that. It's not even funny. But Rebecca is one of the best all-round human beings that I've ever met in my life. And I wish it on good people that they could find their, it's such a corny term, but their soulmate. I don't call it soulmate, I call it my person. She is my person. And one of the things we do for one another is we make us a better us. We bring out the best in one another. And she did that instantly with me and I did that instantly with her. It was absolutely mind-blowing, the instant connection. I was so nervous that I was going to lose this thing. I was very, very careful. But we kind of fast-tracked in that I had her move in with me just a couple of months after we were dating.

You felt that connection all the way throughout though.

PM: I cared for her instantly and I did not like where she was living. I was concerned about her safety early on. I’m still learning from her at this very moment. She very well read in like history and stuff I don't know shit about. The Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians. She loves history. She knows all that stuff and I know the basic dude stuff. She just teaches with her presence. Her demeanor is just on point. The first compliment I ever gave her was, “Rebecca, you know what I like about you is poise and confidence. I think that's so attractive.” That's her demeanor, you know, when people meet her they would agree.

If I pointed at her and said, “Right there, poise and confidence.” They go, “Yeah, you’re right. I see it, poise and confidence.” But she's got everything in between too. Funny. Smart as shit. Ambitious. Motivated. Driven. Self-governed. Drop, dead freaking gorgeous. Holy crap, man. I'll tell you what I tell her. I say this often. I try to get up before she does, and beat her out of bed every morning because I want to bring her a cup of coffee every morning. I'll look at her, put that cup of coffee down, look at her and I go, “Damn, the universe rewarded me.” All that freaking crap that I went through, those bad years of marriage, the freaking universe rewarded me. There it is right there.

So when you've developed these courses, when you've come up with these actionable plans in the gym for other people to take part in, but to break it down in a simplistic way so that they can understand it, where did that come from?

PM: Something I realized, that I liked doing and I didn't even know how to knack for it. I didn't know that this was my calling, was helping people be better people. The amount of fulfillment you get from that right there is it's through the roof as far as fulfillment goes. That's something else that we need, especially when you're disconnected when you get out of the military or something like that. Not just connection but you need fulfillment and purpose. Making people better people is the purpose for me. It's meaningful and it gives me meaning and it is so freaking fulfilling. I love it. That's my full-time job now. That's what I do on different fronts. Whether it's doing a podcast like this, whether it's running a course, or whether it's sharing good information on the interwebs, I'm making people better people.

Love it. My full-time job now. I tell Rebecca all the time. The amount of correspondence I get from people saying, “Bro, you have no idea how much you helped me out.” I tell Rebecca I have no idea what I'm doing. No idea. She says, “Just keep doing it.” It's funny because my buddy CJ and I talked about this a lot. We do the University of Badassery. You met him at Winter Strong. People are craving authenticity and genuineness now. And I don't know how to fake it. There are too many people in my industry who are faking it. And they're passing on false motivation—do better, get some, grind, dig deep.

So the University of Badassery, did that came from that initial idea of helping people?

PM: It's funny because both CJ and I have a real similar quote. We came up with these quotes on our own His is "To be an ass-kicker you have to be able to kick ass. And the first ass you have to kick is your own." Mine is similar in that, "If you cloned yourself yesterday, can you kick your clone's ass tomorrow?" So, it’s about making incremental improvements to improve yourself every day. That's what the University of Badassery means. It's not a badass, walking around with your chest puffed out and throwing haymakers. It's about helping others by helping yourself.

What the process of teaching has taught me is how to read people and how to treat people. Because, when you're teaching, it's really important to be the right person who's going to say the right thing to the right person at the right time. Everybody needs to be treated a little differently, a little bit. I mean, I want to treat everybody equally but when you're teaching, everybody needs to be treated a little differently, in that you have to gauge the thickness of their skin and all this stuff. I've learned that also brevity, the clarity by which something is defined will determine the effectiveness of its applications, shit like that. Short, clear, and concise. I've learned a lot from teaching. There are some theatrics in my teaching too. There's a big part of it that is gesticulating. It's like being a rock star on stage. I want them to feel the energy. I want to fill every millimeter that has a void in it. I want to fill this void here full of energy because it's contagious.

I feel that when you're teaching, even in the structure, period, you know, when you're there at the range, it's theatrics, but with a purpose. And that purpose served you see it in the students because they all pick up on it. Yep. They're very responsive to him. Yeah. Very. And even in your notes to guys, you know, I noticed that you don't offer you know, quick compliments every five seconds, right? Those compliments are purposeful. Those compliments drive those guys to get better, right? I saw one student in particular where it's like you said something dumb, said hey, footwork. Looking good. And that quick compliment, like that quick smile.

PM: When has anybody ever complimented that guy? I remember which guy you're talking to because he was short and dumpy. When has anybody complimented him on his physical ability? I'm not one of those "Good job. Good job…” types. No, hell no. It's going to be a meaningful compliment. You know, “There's that grip I was talking about. Oh, looks like you just had a religious experience. You just had an epiphany because your shot group just got tightened up, bro.” Those are the kinds of compliments I’m interested in committing to.

When I started teaching, I was one of those guys who I talked about now, too many are too eager to say too much. Not necessary. I really learned it's important to know what to say but it's is equally important to know what not to say. So I really learned that. I learned patience. Well, patience I learned through my past relationship and then being on the range with dudes. You saw in this class we had a couple guys who were not savvy. And patience, man. Patience and then I keep relearning too that positive energy is contagious. Keep people motivated and keep them fired up without false motivation.

Is that trebuchet you have out there a part of basic dude stuff?

PM: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I recorded it for basic dude stuff, not in that building a trebuchet is basic dude stuff, but problem-solving and building stuff. I used the trebuchet for basic dude stuff probably in six different examples, like truing up with a plumb bop for instance. It was an improvised plumb bop where I just had a washer on a piece of string. You just hold it and then it gives you true vertical. That way I was able to true up the trebuchet. That was one example, building stuff was another example. Problem Solving. Two different knots—timber hitch and double sheet bend. Also goofing off and having fun.

What I started doing recently with Basic Dude Stuff is etiquette. The right way to greet, the right way to shake a hand, all that stuff. Being good to others. Not only skill, like primal skills, or being able to turn a wrench, being able to work on your own car, plug a tire, tie a double Windsor tie, tie a knot, becoming lost, but etiquette and people skills are becoming lost because we're so connected, that we're disconnected. People live in a 45-degree syndrome world where they're constantly switched off because they're switched on. Always looking at a device. You'll see later when we go to the pub, you'll see three people all sitting down with a beer in front of them. It’s a beautiful, sunny day. 

They'll be outside and you'll see three people all on their cell phones. Are you freaking kidding me, man? You can't collectively be that boring, that your phones are more interesting than the person sitting across. Or maybe that's an indicator, maybe they are boring. But it kills me too, seeing couples out to dinner and you know that this couple has kids and the kids are at home with a babysitter. These parents had to call and hire a babysitter yet they're out with one another and they're both on their cell phones. I have a collection of photographs in a folder on my phone where I've taken pictures of groups of people. I call that folder “on point” because it's the complete opposite.

You're doing some social science there, Pat. You know what's funny is throughout the course of my master's degree I got in emerging media and communication, studying a lot of social media patterns, one of the things that we came to really understand was how technology interrupts relationships. It was amazing if you studied the statistics of divorce, breakups, kind of what had happened in the course of that relationship to get there, a lot of it was caused by technology. Startingly scary.

PM: I know a lot of couples that have broken up because of their flirting with an old schoolmate on Facebook or they have a porn addiction, or they're messaging men or women that they don't know that they think they have a relationship with right now. I have a saying, “Every night is Saturday night, but every morning is Monday morning.” So three or four times a week, my wife Rebecca works downtown, and she gets off between 5 and 7 pm. We usually link up downtown around that time because it does a couple of things. Number one, it gets me out of the house, otherwise, I'm just going to work. So I need that shutdown time. Number two, it's an opportunity to be social, not that I want to socialize with people. I don't need a bunch of friends but I like the familiarity of the places I go and the people I'm surrounded with because I know them, like my local establishments. But when Rebecca and I get together and have a couple of pints, dude, we chat like school girls. We have dates three to five times a week. We're out but we're never together and both on our cell phones. The only time we're on our devices is if we have something to share. Oh, let me show you this thing. This is funny or I took this picture today of this thing. Look at this. But that's it. It drives me crazy if I'm at a table with three or four people, and somebody jumps on their cell phone or let's say two of them do, Rebecca and I will look at each other and we'll just relocate.

You know, one of the things that I admired the most about you and one thing that I saw that was ever present when we were going through the Sentinel course over the weekend was that I don't remember one time where I saw your phone come out. You were present but I've been on plenty of courses with tactical instructors, I won't name any names. I'm not trying to destroy the project. But people were there on their phones, like every five minutes. What you're showing the people around you is what's on that screen is more important and not them. So it's a very good point.

PM: Yep. I make it a point, to the point where there's some neglect there. I don't ever take pictures. Do you know what I mean? People are always saying at our classes, “Hey, man, you should take some pictures or get some video of this and that.” But, I need to be present for them, not for me. Occasionally, I'll bust it out and say, “Hey, get a video of this.” But yeah, man, I'm glad you noticed that. I can’t be social media focused and mission focused at the same time.

How did you decide to incorporate some of the workouts and more unorthodox stuff into what you were doing?

PM: When I was in special ops units, we did a lot of that. Once I got into the civilian world, I realized, that when I put up my very first YouTube video, I was stationary as well. I was doing the same thing everybody else was, you know, all the other YouTube gun nerds. I looked at that video and really that's not me. It kind of fell flat. So I thought, well, let's see how this plays. Let's start doing stuff that I did while I was in the unit. For instance running and gunning, pushing, pulling, sweating, getting that heart rate accelerated before you go into a hard course of fire. And the response spoke for itself. Guys were like, “Yes.” So I started pumping a bunch of those out, like over the top, ridiculous, climbing rope, pushing a truck videos. I was throwing sandbags, strong hand shots from 50 yards, jumping up into the back of my truck, balancing kettlebells overhead. They were like “shot impossible” stuff.

And the results are because of the number of views I saw and the responses were mind-blowing. So I thought I needed to keep doing this because nobody else was. Now, it didn't take long before other guys started doing that too. They said, “Oh, man, this guy. I need to do this just crap too.” I also incorporate a lot of movement in my courses. Nothing brutal, because I always have a pretty broad and wide skill set disparity, physical disparity, and age disparity. So I'm careful. We don't drag kettlebells, climb ropes, and crap like that. But there's a lot of movement, a lot of kinetics, a lot of foot movement, a lot of dance steps because fighting is fighting. There's going to be movement, there's going to be kinetics. So that has to be incorporated into the training. And people freaking love it, they just love it. Well, you saw it on Sunday. All the movement stuff that we did. You won't see that kind of stuff on any other range unless people are copying what I'm doing.

Watching people though, mentally aware, like the cognitive awareness was high on the range. I noticed that even with you when you were in a group, yeah, you were paying attention to them, but you had your peripheral. You're watching everything. Everybody around you.

PM: Yep and that becomes exhausting. In a weekend course, I'm pretty smoked and a lot of it's because in that round robin  there are three different courses of fire going on and there's movement up and down, left and right on the range. I want guys to have fun and to be engaged but there's an opportunity for grab-ass to happen. The other thing is by day two, we don't do that stuff on day one. By day two, I know who the loose cannons are, the guys with red flags. So I know when to be extra vigilant because I can't see everybody. In that round robin, there are only three people shooting, even though there are 12 people on the range. So it looks chaotic but it's controlled chaos.

What's the most important thing? How do you want people to remember Pat Mac?

PM: I would love if they remember me by what I'm doing right now—making people better people. Spreading positive energy and positive advice. Not taking life too serious and being as positive of an influence as I can.

Tell people you see you got to you got to put books out.

PM: Sentinel and T.A.P.S. T.A.P.S. I wrote years ago and it's a book on shooting. I wrote that pretty much just to secure intellectual property, but it's still relevant. People still say it's a great little book for the range. Sentinel is how to be the agent in charge of your own executive protection detail. That's a good, fun read.

To learn more about Pat McNamara and his upcoming courses check him out online at www.tmacsinc.com, Instagram: @tmacsinc, and on his Youtube Channel: Pat Mac. He is also the author of two books, Sentinel: Become the Agent in Charge of Your Own Protection and T.A.P.S. : Tactical Application of Practical Shooting. Both books are available on Amazon. Check out his podcast with C.J. Ortiz, The University of Badassery Podcast, on all available platforms.